Unleashing Ultimate Power through Joint Venture Affiliate Marketing | AWeurope 2018

Alright, welcome, guys How are you doing, Eric? I'm pretty well

Onstage again, meet you here again, Ido So, you know, we all have a lot of fun at these conferences and we always say, when you're out in the evenings, that's often the best time to meet people who can help further your career So, how did you guys all meet and come together? I've heard there are some stories circulating about how that went down So I don't know who wants to jump in on how you guys met Tinder? Tinder or Grindr? Now you have to go full disclosure Leave nothing out

I'll take it We're all living in Tel Aviv, But the funny thing is that actually we had to go all the way to Bangkok to meet each other So I actually met Omri in Tel Aviv It was a meetup and this is, by the way, we can start with takeaways, like my first takeaway would be like, "Go to meetups where you're from or whatever city you are" I met Omri

I didn't go to any conferences before He introduced me to this world I was that "River Noodle Mastermind" That's what you call it The name of the restaurant

And then we went to the conference, I met G, I met David, I met Eden, we ended up sharing a floor And great things have evolved from that So about those, you guys all have some great JV success stories Can you talk a little bit about why these kinds of relationships are better than going alone? And then talk a little bit about your particular ones here So we give this one to Omri first

Basically, at the end of the day, you are limited in what you can do and what you cannot do I think that one of the key takeaways that you can do when you wanna do a JV is that you have to focus, first of all, and see what your weak points are and to see how, by solving them, you can scale Because at the end of day, what the most important thing is , is to scale Once you kind of can pinpoint and see what other people can help you out with, and then you can collaborate with, you can see that the result will go much more than you thought Synergy, right? Yes

I think it's important to mention the mentality here because the mind frame of a lot of affiliates is this a kind of cloak-and-dagger, you know, "Let's keep everything secret" and I think it's very outdated It's very short-sighted A lot of people a lot of people out there are starting out in affiliate marketing and don't have these opportunities to do great JV's Start sharing

Start masterminding with like-minded people These will turn into JV's That's how a lot of us started together working Just by sharing information You see how each other works, and then from there, great, great things can happen

So I think the mind frame really needs to evolve in the industry and not be cloak-and-dagger anymore I mean, things are changing a lot now Yeah You know what I mean? What you know now is not gonna work in two months, necessarily So I think that's important

That makes sense You have anything to add, David? Yes, for me, basically, the three main reasons why you want to JV, the first one, like the other guy said, it's about sharing information and experience Now the second one is resources Like, when you partner up with someone, you get access to to his resources and obviously, he gets access to your resources The last one is about networking, connections, stuff like this

Basically, if I partner up with someone, I get access to his networks, his connections Yeah, so in the info space and in the education space JV's, I feel like I've been around for a long time, but you're right In the affiliate space, there really is that sort of like siloed mentality where people have their head down They have their own little piece of real estate and they don't want to give it up So you're saying, obviously, for people looking to get into it, it's really about opening up that mindset, understanding that people can be bigger than what their own efforts are

Everyone has their own little secret things that maybe you don't want to get out, okay? Yeah But there's a lot of things which you know, you think you know that you're the only one who knows it You're not Okay? Loads of people know it Yeah

You find one of your secrets, you'll be in a mastermind with twenty people and you'll be like and when you give a little tip here, and everyone's like, "Yeah, yeah, I know that, I know that" You don't None of us are really that special I mean, there's power in numbers and it's about your network, especially when you're starting out and anyone here that runs Facebook, the last couple of months, you know, my network has been the only thing that's gotten me through that Yeah, and we've done very well since then because of it, and it's hugely important This is not a massive industry but there's a lot of power in this industry and the power is in numbers

Yeah, the performance industry is, it always boggles my mind how much power we have as individuals to get our message out there with the tools at our disposal It's scary, sometimes even Yeah But at the end of the day, the cake is big enough You know what I mean? That's right

There's a lot It's so useful especially when you deal with Facebook or Google It's such huge traffic sources, so even if really all the 20 people in the mastermind will do the same, will run the same offer to the same Geo It will take time to saturate as long as it's a big job And I always say, too, like if you're worried about sharing a piece of the pie, you just have to set up JV's in situations where you actually make the pie bigger in what you do, and you can do that exponentially Bigger than what you might have been doing before

Very cool So, I'm interested for some specific situations that sort of call for JV's Like, what are some situations that sort of cry out for JV's, and then what would be good ways to approach companies specifically about making these happen? Ido Actually, I would like and I'm happy you asked about the approach This is something that, unfortunately, I see very often and this is like new affiliates and they're coming and no one knows them and they're approaching and they ask for a JV and it's important to understand it on the other side of the affiliate

They're sitting on either a network or either a service with a big infrastructure, and to make a JV takes a lot of effort So before you go and ask for a JV, I would say, first of things, start and work like every other client Get to know, evaluate the other side, let them evaluate you If we see you're serious, if you see we are serious, maybe we're not good for you And then, this is actually where these meetups, this conference is coming very handy

Meet up with this agency or with the network and then start talking about JV Rather than just starting with a JV before everybody gets to know you Yeah, and we were talking earlier about beginners, right? Because JV's, you guys walk in and you guys are superaffiliates You've been doing this for a really long time You can approach a network and say, "Okay, let's talk about a JV

" But I want to combine that with the previous one where we were talking about beginners If you're more of a beginner getting into this space, we talked about wanting to open yourself up more to partnerships with other affiliates, but do you think, in doing that, you're also gonna gain more leverage and have more ability to work with networks if you're actually sort of partnered with a group of other affiliates more so than going on your own because now we're just going to be more open, to be working with a group of affiliates that all have like, synergistic powers than maybe just one stand alone Is that accurate? Yeah, I believe Yes Obviously, as a group of affiliates, you have more volume so you can impact the network way more

So obviously, you will get more attention, more resources, maybe better payouts and better offers So it's good to approach a network as a group over just a solo affiliate, especially when you just start out and you don't really have volume Exactly I want to tie it out to the beginners because it is important, because I'm sure there are a lot of beginners in the crowd When I first started out, I remember my business partner 'til today

I met him from STM forum Shout out to to STM! And it was, when we just started out, we didn't have the budget to test all the offers and the angles, and back in the day, it was harder This wasn't done with many spy tools as there is today, so you really had to test and come up with everything by yourself from the beginning, and the way that we started is not by directly being in a JV partnership but just by sharing information So we started by sharing information Then we said, "Hey, let's try and ride the campaign together

" Then, the campaign was successful, and another campaign came up and then suddenly you're in a business partnership, you know? And that grew We actually, in the company, every now and then, we're hosting for our clients these masterminds This gives them the opportunity to JV with themselves rather than approach us, and we find it like, we get great feedback, results Affiliates can approach each other and, like you said it's important to find someone in your level or maybe a bit above, but when the difference is too much it's just harder and it's like the Yeah, I think that's hugely important to understand who to JV with and who not to JV with Yeah

You know what I mean? Because a lot of people were very, especially if you're new and you're just starting out Someone asks you if you wanna do a JV, you're like, "Yeah, let's do a JV" Is it the right JV for you? You know what I mean? I think the only way to really analyse those is to look at yourself, give yourself a little bit of respect and look at your own business and go, "Okay, what am I good at? What am I not good at?" Through developing your own business, outsourcing, looking at where you're wasting time, things like that, you're already opening yourself up to outside sources that can help you and through that, you can identify what you need in your JV's, and then that way you, the JV that I have with Media500 is a quite an extensive one To the extent where we also JV with other JV partners, a lot of people sitting actually in the audience today The only reason we're able to develop that in such a way is because our skills complement each other

And if you don't have that, you can actually find the opposite occur So going into a JV can damage your relationship and cause you more problems than good So it's important to analyse that to begin with, instead of just jumping in Start slow Don't go full force

Yeah, but I want to touch on something already said, because you said for beginners, that every opportunity for JV, they will jump on it? I don't think it's the case I think it's the opposite because when you're starting out, you just don't understand finance that well so if someone tells you, "Hey, let's JV and I will take 50% of the profit" For example The first thing that will come to your mind will be, "Hell no" Right? "I will never do that

" But then, when you start working on the numbers, you do it properly, you realise that it's better to have, let's say, 50% of 20k a day than 100% of 1k a day So it's really also, it's kind of a mindset change that beginners need to go through In order to really be able to open up to the JV opportunities So what are you saying, like, you don't want to split it 50/50 right off the bat? What would be a potential scenario that could evolve with, that you could start with so that you're not committing 50% off the bat? That's what I said in the beginning That the best thing is just to kind of test the water and see everything, share information, you know? So decide that this is the specific offer that you're going to run together and you're not going to withhold anything You're gonna share the stats and everything, and from there, you're gonna grow and you're gonna see, "Okay, we have an opportunity here

Now, let's see how we can scale it and then we can talk numbers" But it really depends on the JV and the nature of it, and what the other side provides Just to address that point in particular, when you're talking about, "Okay, that's money out of my pocket" Like Omri said, I completely agree that it's the volume But more than that, I think it's very short-sighted to just look at, "This is the amount of percent that I may lose from my existing campaign

" You need to be a little bit longer-sighted and look at, "Okay, what else am I going to gain from this JV?" So if you're already in a position where you have a setup, you have your resources which can be shared between you, you know, your reach is much larger I can get to places, for example, that maybe Guillaume can't Guillaume can get me things that I can't get otherwise Vice versa with everyone sitting on this panel We all help each other

You find that if you do things for each other, it doesn't impact the JV specifically They benefit you as businessmen That's some massive impact Yeah, if you only think about the affiliate commissions, you're gonna miss out on this other value that you're getting by this business relation You know, I've had JV's that I've gone into through helping JV partners with their partners

Which kind of sounds weird because it's like, "Why would I help you with another one of your JV's?" or "I'm not getting money" It's gonna make me money at some point, anyway It's about helping each other This is all about relationships And I think people need to think about what you get outside of it because it's huge

So you've got JV's within JV's, you've got meta-JV's Give me a ballpark How many JV's are you currently on, maybe if that's a question for the panel? How many JV's do you guys have going on at any given time? I mean look, I love us seeing on stage, for example We mentioned earlier how we met We all live next to each other, but we met through conferences after STM and Affiliate World, but we ended up coming back into Tel Aviv, and we were sharing an office together

We created a little hub of a group of companies, which was great, so although we have done JV's in the past, we just share information a lot That in itself is a JV So it depends what you define as a JV, but you know, we do a decent amount Yeah, I mean it depends on what your business model is You know what I mean? You could hire loads and loads of people and do everything internally, or you can have your core business of resources, structure yourself to be able to run without you, and then get the additional benefits through JV's

That's my model, personally Especially for provider, it doesn't have to be a JVwhere you get a cut out of something, for example as with Media500, a lot of times they have affiliates, we have issues and then like, "Oh, Ido Maybe they can help out" And he doesn't want anything in return if something closes, because he knows it's the other way around So that's also something to take into consideration

We basically complete the needs of each other So if the affiliate needs something, we're gonna provide it If we need something for example, just as an example that come to my head We had a campaign running that was on pretty much unread percent ROI and then took it over and tweaked a bit of the ad copy, changed the creative a bit and it literally jumped to 200% ROI, so it's like straight results So when they line up right, they're a no-brainer for the networks as well

No, definitely I mean it always starts, like you said before, as a normal company affiliate business relationship, and with trust and loyalty and with time, then it evolves into a JV and with different kinds of JV's, so these are like extensive JV's but there's different levels to help each other which is like sharing information, attending the masterminds, all the meetups It's important here especially from that perspective to look at data as affiliates, especially media When you're buying, you need insight on your traffic Like if you're working with someone who, you need a custom audience, you need this, you need that

If you're a casino or you're a network, you don't really want to give a certain amount of that information away because it could potentially damage you I'm vice-versa, whereas when, that's one of the benefits of working with a network Not that they share other people's information by any case, but you're able to ask the questions you need to ask and get the information because there's openness, you know what I mean? I think that's important if you're an affiliate who wants to work with a network or you want to work with a company Like Ido said, you need to develop that relationship first because there is an element of trust there that is important Yeah, and I just see it so being so mutually beneficial so that instead of affiliates kind of going off as wildcards doing stuff that the network doesn't know about, and if the network's able to open up a little bit as well and then the affiliate's able to open up, then you get something synergistic that works for both parties

The traffic quality is a massive thing, especially in a lot of things and we can only provide higher quality if we know what we need to do, and that's, it's always a sticking point there and I think this solves that Nice Okay, so from an affiliate organization standpoint, what are ways that you can set up your organization to be conducive and good for JV's, essentially? What are some things you can do there? Look, I think it's very important to understand what you need in your business Understand what you're good at Identify

You need to think like a businessman Don't be an affiliate You want to be a one-man band? It's only going to get you so far Also, if we're talking about JV's, you're not gonna be able to work on that many JV's You're not gonna be able to give as much resources and time that your JV or your partner deserves

So you really need to identify, streamline your existing business, look at where you're wasting time, and optimise it, create an operation, create an infrastructure and resources and organise yourself to be open to outside sources, and then from there the sky really is the limit As long as you have that internal structure, you need to give your own business a bit of respect just being yourself But I can tell you from the other side of things Especially when you approach a big network, the chances they will JV with you are very slim I know that that's how we do in our company The account managers know that there are certain three rules or whatever we decide, that if the affiliate is not in that standard, we do not JV

So it's the amount of time he's working with us, it's the money that was flowing and the communication is a big key So like when the manager comes to me, he's like, "Oh, we have a potential JV" Then it's like, "Is he qualified?" Yeah, absolutely But I also think that even if the structural kind of organisation, even when you come to these events and you're talking to people, and it can be colleagues Whenever you kind of hear what they do right now in the business, always in the back of your mind say, "How can we collaborate? How can we collaborate?" Always look for this opportunity and whenever you hear something, "Ah, you know what? Actually, I have a way that you can do even more

" "Let's let's set up a meeting" or "Let's just sit down" But not too much because you can tell when an affiliate just wants to uh Of course, you have to be smart about it and you have to be not too much of a hustler with your friends But at the same time always look for a win-win situation, and always be open to these ideas in your mind

I think the key there is about, honestly it's a bit of a cliche, but working smarter as opposed to harder That's the basis of joint ventureships That is what it is And if you do that in your own business, you do that with colleagues you do that like you say when you meet people in these conferences think about, "Okay, how can we help each other How can we help each other? What ways to get something in return?" Because you find a lot of the time, you give a little and you get a lot back without even asking for it A lot of people here meet each other for the first time in these conferences and become the best of friends Go fly around the world to go meet each other

That's the vibe You know what I mean? That's one of the great things about it So, you know, embrace it It's easily one of the best things about this industry and that's sort of a question like, is there a line between? Where does friendship play into JV's? Like you guys are like, and how important is your gut when you meet someone about like, Would you JV with people you wouldn't want to hang out with? It's a good question It's a curve ball

Let's put it this way We all go into Ibiza after I guess this is also like a secret sauce for a good collaboration and I think if you're looking for someone to partner up and this is something I've thought about bringing up but like it's a lot of times when you're a beginner, like when you're starting as an affiliate, you always reach out to your friends or whatever, but I am actually very much against it I really think that the best connections, the best friendship that's built outside of the, like from the business and then towards the JV, it's like It depends who you're talking about You're talking about your mate from school? You know, I wouldn't recommend, personally

Because you may be good friends, but it can damage your relationship We are friends by it's friendship built on a business environmentSo that's important, I think To just go and work with friends and family, personally, I Me as well but also instead, if you would work with someone you don't necessarily will hang out with But that you wouldn't want to hang out with

I can tell you that we JV'd with people that were in their 50's and with kids and with nothing in common It's not like I will go out with him and go to Ibiza together, but it still makes sense Business-wise, it made sense I wouldn't like, make that a threshold If it's someone that's same age as me and I would not trust, then it's a different story

Trust is something else than getting along in a friendly way, I think You don't need to be best friends, but We need some synergy So we have a stronger JV with native guys that is actually part of the STM and we're actually turning into a JV company, so we're building now technological software to optimise native labs We're not best friends, but we're like friends We're not hanging out, it's not coming to Ibiza

So there needs to be some synergy, but you don't need to be the best friends who go into JV It's a business at the end of the day We're here to make money A lot of the time I think it's quite a young industry, right? So a lot of the time, people do let their emotions cloud their judgment, their business judgment I think that's a massive mistake

So when you're asking, you know, would you hang out with them? Would I have a beer with the guy? Would we be able to talk about, break bread? Whatever, fine Yeah, of course Otherwise, how are you even going to communicate in your relationship? But you don't have to love each other You're gonna argue, you know? You need to be able to separate emotions from business and make better decisions We argue a few times a day by the way Yeah

Well, speaking of arguing, I've done a number of JV's, most of them very good I've had a few bad ones Specifically, I like how this question is worded, what are your biggest fuck-ups JV-ing? Do you have any that you can talk about and that you could help people learn from what not to do in JV's? I can't without saying the name of the person Oh, really? But we did have a JV that we went into like a year and a half ago, where the potential like the numbers we've seen was huge, and we really like we're excited about it and we ended up investing like 5-figures into developing technological solutions in order to make it happen and everything but it was like an industry in their dying phase, and we came late and, in this time there was an advertiser so we said that we're gonna take care of the media part and they will take care of the product and we will get also from the product and what happened in the end is that we were the one bringing all the revenue in and they were not bringing anything, and if we were smart about it, this is kind of the lesson here, is to foresee they had so many technical issues that we should have foreseen before we even got into it, and then also you have to set it in advance and You have to set it in advance and say, "What will happen if I will bring all the revenue and you will not be able to provide? How would we split it?" So it's really important to make these ground rules before you even start And catch waves earlier

Yeah, exactly That's really a key point, I think There's probably a lot of people contracts, no contracts, wherever, wherever, it depends on who you are If you're a network or a company, it's slightly different than if you were an affiliate but Whenever I start a JV, I like to say, "Okay, what is it we're JV-ing on, what are we doing here?" So everyone's on the same page, because otherwise, things can get confusing and some people can feel bad And if you're working with someone who necessarily can't make that differentiation, who can't say this is good, this is not good

This is cool, this is not cool It can end very badly, so just make sure you're on the same page with the person Don't jump into it Let's test something together and like you said start with sharing, develop into testing maybe a small project together and then from there, make sure you you're both on the same page Otherwise, things can go down and uncomfortable

This is something, I mean, where everybody's cool We're a younger industry and a lot of times people, and I see that making bills based on Skype or based on a JV, and they say, "Yeah, it's written on Skype It's valid" But no, this is my opinion I believe in making a contract thinking five years ahead and everything written down

So when there's a contract, I think the other side is also And it's very different for you because you're a company Service provider, you provide a lot of things to people whereas with affiliates, it's very dynamic so you can't write it down XYZ because that's going to change in the course of a week ten times But maybe having specific guidelines, and also we come from Israel Israel's very much a handshake mentality It's probably one of the only places in the world where it kind of works

It's a bit weird and it's uncomfortable for me coming from England who's very much, you know contracts this, that it can work like that It does somehow work, but again, It depends on the people You have to, like you said, whether you're a service provider or an affiliate or a network, you have to have already built a relationship and communication, and worked together to begin with, you know what I mean? And from there certain amount of trust is developed with understandings and then the extensiveness of a contract, sometimes just a summary on Skype and sharing funds or, because you may be working with the network, and he's receiving the money you're paying the money it kind of figures itself out But I don't know about specifics for affiliates, how relevant like There just has to be that understanding that you're There's a certain amount of value you're gonna be putting in, and you wouldn't want to work with someone who is taking value that they weren't earning, and so that's like the gut part of it, too, in a way and the trust in the relationship you build right? Because as soon as you've got a situation where you feel someone isn't pulling their weight, that's where there can be these troubles Let's end it on a positive note here

Contracts and everything We're pretty much done here But like, just we haven't even sort of mentioned you guys have been working on some pretty high level deals You talked about JV's within JV's, we're talking like 6-figure JV's here, right? Yeah? Even higher? Even more? Seven Well, this is the kind of stuff you can do when you evolve your affiliate relationships with great networks like Media500 and work with fine gentlemen like we have on the stage here

So I want to thank these guys for coming on the panel Let's give them a round of applause

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